@ keith:
Just to get one thing straight: Form a republican point of view, propably 95% of (western continental) Europe would be concidered liberals (actually, liberl in Europe is a nice word and in no way an insult as in the US, due to a different content imo). So yes, even the majority of the population of the coalition members UK, Poland, (Spain) and Italy are against Bush... As well as 50 % of the US... that's about 80% or so of the western world, but hey, we can't make up your mind, can we? In difference to most Americans (I was in the US while the Iraq war started) most Europeans actually make a difference between the government and the people (ie: boycott France and Germany, ....)
But, back to soccer: Some ppl don#t think that Mathis played that great lately, I don't see it as bad as they did, but besides his goal he didn't play good neither. I have no idea how he performs in practice, but what we heard that he sayd to Lienen it is no wonder he deosn't make it to the bench. Other examples show that Lienen puts a player he has had differences with back in the squad when they shut up and do good in practice. That's all Mathis needs to do.

btw, I am a mod, but just posting my oppinion here, please take me as a real poster, not as a mod when it comes to posts like this...
cu Squig

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OK, Mod.

But one thing which "der rote" et al have missed is that Mathis was out injured for a while. I know he was injured during US NAtional team training and also took a knock in Germany. Surprise - injuries have a habit of keeping you out of the game. Out of place and out of mind.

I presonally agree that Mathis was not treated right from coach, media and parts of the fans, but you went to far with your first postings, even in bigsoccer no one says that Mathis not playing is very bad for Hannover or the Bundesliga, maybe when it comes to personal interest in it, but not overall.
After all, it is in Mathis' hands...

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No, actually I did not miss that. And I don't really expect Mathis to perform superbly in every match, either. All I expect is that he gives it his all. And quite frankly, I did not get the impression that he did.

Whenever you attack the coach in the way that he did, you need to back it up. And he didn't. And I don't like that. That is all there is to it for me. Nothing personal, no predjudice, nothing else.

Do you know Mathis personally, btw? The ferocity of your defense almost makes me think you had a personal stake in this. Do you?


@Squig: I have to disagree. I don't think Mathis had to endure anything special from the fans, the media or the coach. The only time he was making headlines was when he attacked Lienen. And he brought that onto himself. Other than that, his treatment hasn't been worse than that of other players.

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Konjugation eines unregelmäßigen Verbs

Ich bin fest.
Du bist eigensinnig.
Er ist ein dickköpfiger, unbelehrbarer Hornochse.
(Bertrand Russell)

I dont know Mathis! I just like to see fair play, particularly for the few Americans who have ventured abroad for what is still a fledgling sport in the USA. This affair is bad for AMERICAN soccer not just Mathis. As I have had coaching experience I know that some coaches bear grudges and thats not fair on guys who are professionals.

Mathis hardly "attacked" the coach. If a friendly pointing to a watch is an attack (I suspect that Mathis still cant speak German weel enough to commujnicate vebally anyway) then Germans must be very thin-skinned indeed! Goos grief, the coach cant take a friggen joke!

He did. Don't forget Mathis was in the starting line-up for the next match. And he completely blew this chance.

Plus: since then we have won every single game in a convincing fashion. Why would the coach want to change his team and substitute one of the hard-working guys for Mathis with his recent work ethic?

I'll say it again, Mathis will get his chance, but probably not in the next few weeks.

_________________
Konjugation eines unregelmäßigen Verbs

Ich bin fest.
Du bist eigensinnig.
Er ist ein dickköpfiger, unbelehrbarer Hornochse.
(Bertrand Russell)

@ der Rote:
have you been to practice lately or spoken to someone who has been there? Because I have heard nothing about mathis not working hard (or working hard, at the other hand). If you did so, please feel free to tell more ;-)
But you'r right, now that eventually the forwards started scoring again it does not look good for Clint to get a spot there... And Kruppi seems to play good to, as all other offensive players.

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Der rote, do you know coach Leinen?
Certainly with the team winning - if it aint broke dont fix it. Its true that its always a problem if you are out and cant get back in. Having said that in practice it becomes obvious which players are in form and the team should be made up of the in-form players.

Geeze, Hannover won AGAIN without their star player on the pitch.

Well, Lienen is working hard for his team it right now it is hard to find fault with anything he does. Success makes everything right, I guess. But the team is really playing well an deserves the success, so the coach must be involved in that.

Personally, I like him a lot, beause he strikes me as an honest and hard working guy. And right now he has the "problem" of having too many good players already. Today, he had to leave our best scorer (Stajner) on the bench for the returning Cherundolo. A tough decision, to be sure.

Which of course makes it even harder for Mathis right now. There are 12 or 13 guys who played well in recent weeks and could rightly claim a spot in the starting lineup.

_________________
Konjugation eines unregelmäßigen Verbs

Ich bin fest.
Du bist eigensinnig.
Er ist ein dickköpfiger, unbelehrbarer Hornochse.
(Bertrand Russell)

Hmm. Just saw coach Lienen in a sports show on tv. The host asked him a bunch of questions, one of them about Mathis. They showed the footage of Mathis pointing to his watch and running towards the coach after his goal against Schalke. While doing this, he apparently mouthed "no respect".

Coach Lienen is a pretty old-school guy and big on respect and his answer was that Mathis shouldn't talk about respect since there were about 20 things he (Lienen) could say to that.

So apparently there were other incidents that we don't know about.

_________________
Konjugation eines unregelmäßigen Verbs

Ich bin fest.
Du bist eigensinnig.
Er ist ein dickköpfiger, unbelehrbarer Hornochse.
(Bertrand Russell)

q der Rote:
agree, saw the same interviw and got the same lines from it.
But I think we could extend it a bit more since our english visitors don't get 2DF an/or don't speak German ;-)
Lienen also said that he wants every player to do what he expects when it turns to eating/drinking habbits, attitude in Practice and life, and so on and so on. When a player does not do what he expect from him he won't be playing, if he does the door opens again. Some did open the door (Christiansen and Sousa for example), but the example they had in the Sportstudio was Mathis and he didn't do what he wants him to do so he door would not open...
So, it is all up to Mathis, Lienen says what he wants, I think if Clint really wants he could make the team again!
And, at the other hand, Lienen said that Mathis got in trouble after pointing the watch (I actually don't remember what he literally sayd in german, something with 'Spannungen' or so, if someone could help me out here?). O well, we'll see, tonight helped at least me understadning why he's out of the squad...

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For me, some things are more clear now, actually I didn't see the interview. I can remember quit well what Lienen and Mathis said about the "watch-incident". They both declared that Mathis would have liked to substitute at an earlier point in the match. I think (I'm just guessing) Lienen helped him out there, by talking to him at the end of the match and giving a subsituting explanation to the press.

Squig, I´ll give you a helping hand

The TV-mod asked Lienen: "Did Mathis get some stress for that?"
Lienen: "Sure he did" (reaction of the audience: amusing laughing ...).

Moreover I noticed, that it was not only Clints reaction to point on his watch. First he put his right hand on his balls and then, while shouting "no respect", he pointed the watch.

Perhaps in the States it´s normal, that, to raise your salary, you enter in your boss´office, make some perversity and your boss says: "OK guy, you got it !"

And one week later Clint blew the chance, the coach - despite of all that happened - offered him.

I do believe, that Clint is making the game, he also played in other teams: starting good, after some time "making stress" and then transfer to another team: clearly, it could be a good way to earn some money ... but the problem is: how long other teams do trust you.

Finally, I don´t have to insist on the moral aspect of Clint´s behaviour

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Wettberger

Stress was the word, thank you
I tried to save it in my brain while wtching TV and theyn totally failed... what a shame...
well, anyways, thanx to the Benelux Fraction ;-)

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I dont understand what is meant by stress. I think you guys are using a "literal" translation. What you mean in plain English perhaps is "did Mathis get any grief for that"!

Let´s make a deal and call it pressure.
Reminds me on Freddy Mercury´s and David Bowie´s sound (of course together with Queen): "Under pressure".

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Wettberger

Stress was actually no translation at all ;-)
In German you can say that someone get 'Stress', which means that he is in problems and has to see the consequences of his doing. I just was so puzzled that I didn't remember the word that i wanted someone to tell me, it was clear to me that it means something complete diffferent in English... ;-)
pressure would be a fine translation I think, or how about problems with someone...

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That is exactly right. And the coachs answer was "of course he did". But Lienen has a very dry sense of humor, so that answer didn't seem as harsh as it could have.

I'm still convinced, Mathis could have gotten away with his behavior after the goal if he had played well in the next game. But apparently, other things happend as well that we don't know about.

_________________
Konjugation eines unregelmäßigen Verbs

Ich bin fest.
Du bist eigensinnig.
Er ist ein dickköpfiger, unbelehrbarer Hornochse.
(Bertrand Russell)

Actually Mathis DID NOT FEATURE IN THE NEXT MATCH....
Where do you get that idea?